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az60
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October 04, 2023 10:16
Raoul62
There is no further discussion possible on this point. It is a fait accompli. In the past, stamps have been approved based on the total description. Every change had to be tested against the original input. If there was a discrepancy between description and image in the original input, then the description of the original input and not the image should be chosen.
This is the choice made in the past. You can agree or disagree with that, but that's not important. It is what it is. If you approach it from the other side, you will cause complete chaos in the catalog. Every shop offers the wrong stamps. No collection is right anymore. If that's what you want, then keep it up.
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az60
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October 04, 2023 10:45
Loriot
I broadly agree with you. There is one detail that I think needs to be changed and that is the description of the 1909 crown. You talk about:
Crown of Saint-Stephen with rings and cross above in less acute angle ”.
That less acute angle (less acute) is of course a relative concept. First of all, it is not made clear what you should compare that angle with. You and I know to compare with the 1908 watermark, but many people don't know that. In addition, less sharp is a relative concept. How sharp is less sharp. To see what means less sharp, you have to compare both at the same time. I only like absolute features and would opt for a curved line as a top for the crowns of 1908 and 1909 and for a top with straight lines for 1909.
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Helv
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October 04, 2023 10:49
I have Loriot in the watermark overview #9953905 already named as Stephen's crown with rings and lying cross. In due course, the list of watermarks under stamps will have to be corrected. However, there are still some translation issues regarding the title at the moment; This is not translated and cannot be manually adjusted for other languages. This issue has been reported and is being worked on.

item LD #818347
For me, a trading card opens instead of a stamp.
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October 04, 2023 11:47
az60
I started from the description given in Stanley Gibbons. Michel also has a description of both watermarks. Since I do not pledge the truth, here is another proposal that may be better and better in line with what you propose:
1908: “ Saint-Stephens Crown with rounded top and rings from below ”
1909: “ Saint-Stephens Crown with square top and rings from below ”.

Helv
#8183471 instead of #818347 
When names are OK; I'll give you the translation in 4 languages.
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October 04, 2023 13:03
Apart from the reason for the seal introduced a long time ago, I would like to say something in general about the dominance of Description vs Image.

The basic manual rightly points out the use of your own images when entering/changing images. This proves that the item actually exists.
So the image is the first determining factor whether an item exists. It happens to everyone from time to time that the wrong image is posted. But it cannot be the case that there is a model car in the image and an engine is described.
In my view, the same applies to all categories, including stamps. Here too, a stamp with a face value of 10 cents cannot be entered and the description speaks of a 50 cent face value.

What az60 rightly points out is that, especially with stamps, the same image can apply to multiple stamps. This is due to the not immediately visible differences (paper type, watermark, etc.). But here too the description cannot differ from the visible image. A purple colored stamp on an image cannot be described as yellow.
No idea how many items the description deviates from the image, but we are of course not going to start a witch hunt to shame those items. Handle this with care and be sure to check the history of such an item.
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October 04, 2023 13:38
I have the impression that it often happened with stamps that a stamp variant A was 'rebranded' into variant B, and that version A was subsequently reintroduced by someone else.
If many users are connected to it, you have a dilemma. After all, you cannot see when someone added the stamp to their collection or shop, or whether that was before or after it was changed.

If it all happened years ago, then it's more practical to choose to keep both items as they are (assuming they're both properly defined).
If you reverse everything on the original item (from variant B to A), you must also reject or merge the new item (variant A). The consequences of this are even less predictable than if you approve the current status.
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October 04, 2023 14:25
The basic manual rightly refers to the use of own images when entering / changing images. This shows that the item actually exists.

This is really hypocritical. You have not worked on it yourself, but many administrators have introduced the so-called basic stamps for years. And even worse, the image of the “basic stamp” was often misused to add the same image to the items with specific characteristics. 
Those basic stamps still exist. When will this be cleaned up? If the enormous  items older than ten years were discussed for review? There will probably also be errors from entering it.
An administrator also said the following:
az60 
“ Because description is dominant over image
I wouldn't dare say that.

If I scan a stamp to add, and I make a mistake about a catalog number... Is it a different stamp ( possibly a duplicate )?

I did scan and add the object I own myself. The image is dominant because that is the stamp I added, nothing else. With our own scans, any mistake is excluded: that is the item.

Mi is the ( original ) image of an item that determines ( dominant ). ”

What will he change about this situation?
Helv
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October 04, 2023 23:24
Loriot in case #8183471 it is most obvious that the wrong watermark was selected. I have adjusted this and asked the original importer and sole collector to check this.

Yvert does not seem to make a distinction between the watermark from 1908 and 1909. In my somewhat older Yvert, the image of watermark C corresponds to the watermark we call 1909 in LD, but the first use of C is mentioned in 1908.

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az60
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October 05, 2023 00:20
I should have explained it a little more clearly. Only stripspeldjes seems to understand where the problem lies: the variants. Always those variants.
With all stamps of which there is only 1 shape, there is of course no problem, no discussion. That's what that image is all about. Adjustment of the description is either good or bad. But it won't make it a different stamp, in principle. I think this is what Collectioneur Raoul62 and Loriot are thinking about.
How different can it be with the variants. The difference between the variants is often made in the description. Things such as watermark, luminescence, paper, security features, printing form, screen size, etc. are usually not visible from the image. Or is sometimes unknown to the importer. Or the importer makes a mistake and provides a description and an image that do not belong together. Or they deliberately add the wrong image to the description, because they do not have the stamp in their possession and the importer still wants to fill that gap in the catalogue. In addition, there are often adjustments in the description. Sometimes an item changes from variant a to variant b and c and back to a or b.
The only way to review this is to test the changes in the description against the original description of version 1. And not against the image, because it does not (always) show the differences. The description therefore prevails over the image. And that line must be implemented consistently across variants.
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az60
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October 05, 2023 01:05
in case #8183471 it is most obvious that the wrong watermark has been selected.
I don't think so. You own the seal. You have it in your hand, you want to see where the stamp belongs in your collection. So you check the watermark. Year correct, series correct. So what's wrong with it? I think there are significantly more mistakes made with those catalog numbers. His further input looks good. Quite completely completed and few improvements by others.
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Helv
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October 05, 2023 01:27
az60 I think Loriot clearly explained what was wrong. If the Michel number was entered incorrectly, the year was also entered incorrectly and the horizontal watermark does not need to be stated.
In the case of a watermark, the first one is selected instead of the one just below it. This is a similar error to the watermark "Sun" instead of "Without watermark".

The importer is still active on LD and will respond to PM if it is incorrect.
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October 05, 2023 01:59
Helv 
Do I really have to explain to a “super administrator” how the input of this item came about and how to handle it?
The original contributor indicated the 1908 as year of the issue, as well as the 1908 watermark. He also has Michel no. 20 Y entered.
The item therefore has contradictory characteristics from the start. To now declare that it is obvious that the watermark is wrong is just based on nothing, especially because the other characteristics mentioned (issue year and watermark 1908) contradict this. There is simply nothing obvious. The fact that the year is changed from 1908 to 1909 at a later date is irrelevant. The SG number D122 only indicates that the watermark for the entire series is sideways whether in 1908 or in 1909.
So I don't understand your adjustments at all. By the way, you have not adjusted one contradictory charasteristic of your changes! If the series has the name of “1908 Figure”, then strictly speaking the type is not “stamp”, but "watermark variety".
All that can be done is:
a ) If possible, ask the original insertor which watermark can be seen on the item;
b ) After that, adjust the item correctly or if the contributor no longer knows or doesn't respond, completely reject the item.
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October 05, 2023 17:19
az60 stripspeldjes
And why should the description take precedence?
Comics are often used here as a comparison.
10 x the same front.
But 10 times a different back.
What else are the images for?
And just post an extra image to make the difference/detail clear.
For example at position 3.
If you then select that 10 in position 3, you will also see the difference...

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October 05, 2023 19:58
Helv az60 stripspeldjes
Let's take a look at Other Watermarks.
There you have the Basic shape field.
And I spontaneously think that there are other shapes besides the basic shape.
Or not.
And are all shapes listed under basic shape?
For example, some have 2 indications.
Or is it rather form(s) or basic form(s)?
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Helv
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October 06, 2023 00:00
buizer, az60 and stripspeldjes the idea behind the basic form is to make searching easy through filters. The complete shape is described by the image (preferably schematic and photo/scan).
The title is a slightly more brief description, which should ultimately correspond to the Stamps/Watermark list (the latter can also be adjusted).
The basic shape is the most rudimentary shapes, at the level of "Star", "Triangle", "Letters", "Crown" etc.

By filtering on the basic shape "Cross" you get an overview of all "Crosses". Now limited to two Maltese crosses and a Lusitanian cross. Several Patriarchal Crosses are planned (for Hungary). By the way, it's no problem if someone else beats me to adding it!

Originally I thought that one shape would be dominant per watermark, but upon further development it seemed useful to make multiple choices. It is then a matter of taste whether it should be basic shape, basic shapes or basic shape(s).

The basic shape field is currently not a closed list and other shapes can still be added by anyone, such as "Quadrilateral". However, the list should not be too long.

An administrator has also been appointed for "Other/watermarks" and for now that is me.
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October 06, 2023 14:24
Helv 
I just want to inform you that I am very interested of course in this debate, but not in the way you are directing it now. I have said and I still say that you should start from the images of the existing watermarks. 

Only then will you be able to do an accurate description and so:
- have an overview of all watermarks;
- indicate the differences between comparable images.

You will then notice that words can be recurrent in the descriptions and that many countries or regions have the same watermark(s).
I’m doing the same work for the moment as I stated above, but it will take a little longer than your experiments.
In addition, I will also have made the description in the four usual languages, which I don't see at your page. In addition you may be sure that automatic translations to French or German won’t be free from inedaquate terms or words.
You also said:
 My first impression is that Michel only chooses the name of a watermark uniquely within country. The same name can appear in several countries with a different image associated with it.
 That's fine in itself, but if that is the case, it does imply that 's Loriot 
idea to give each watermark a unique description is not feasible. 
For the umpteenth time assumptions without any evidence. You may think you are belittling me with this, in the same way that you repeatedly fail to answer my questions. You just make it difficult for yourself, implausible and consciously distant. Please stop this.
Helv
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October 06, 2023 15:09
Loriot all I'm saying is that your opinion conflicts with a previous suggestion from Raoul62. There is little to prove that. You know enough about Michel to know that they place the same description for different pictures. So where the translation above says "impression" it is a fact.

The overview we are working on in "Other" is completely based on images. In this regard, I believe we are doing exactly what you suggest. However, we do this publicly and transparently. Everyone can watch and contribute to this overview.

We could even add the names of the different catalogs (or numbers) to this overview. Because LD is an independent catalogue, a conscious decision was made not to do this. This may be reflected in the naming/translation of the title (suggestion @raoul62). No decision has been taken yet. In one place there is still the name of the watermark from a German-language catalog as a remnant of an experiment. If that bothers anyone, it can be removed.

An overview based on pictures also reduces the risk of ambiguity in words across four languages.

The fact that there is currently a translation problem surrounding the title has been sufficiently communicated. You have already accepted this before.

Can you formulate your question clearly?
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October 06, 2023 17:38
Helv
I give the watermarks the description that I think is appropriate and original. So they are my descriptions (and later possibly descriptions of LD?). The inspiration comes of course also with the names given in the different catalogs and internet sites. That's why I don't understand what you mean by:
“ You have enough knowledge of Michel to know that they place the same description with different pictures. ” I really don't know what you mean by that.
You further say:
However, we do this publicly and transparently. Everyone can watch and contribute to this overview.
That's bullshit again! Of course I will show my work to everyone when it is finished: this means a COMPLETE OVERVIEW and a COMPLETE LIST of the various descriptions in the 4 languages. The discussion will then yield more than the fragmentary comments now on the forum. Did you really think I would keep it for myself??? Some patience is needed, but yes, people have already been waiting so long…
In one place is the name of the watermark from a German-language catalog as the remainder of an experiment.
If you mean Lusitanian cross: the name of this watermark in English is “ Maltese cross ” and in French “ Croix de Malte ”.
That there is currently a translation problem surrounding the title has been sufficiently communitized. You have already accepted this before.
Again nonsense. I have already provided translations to you and also to Collectioneur so many times, either spontaneously or requested.
az60
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October 06, 2023 17:39
I had to let the new design sink in for a while. As far as I can tell, there shouldn't be any difference in what Loriot wants and the intent of Helv and Collectioneur. In any case, what I do agree with Loriot is that the title field should be in four languages. Absolute.
Furthermore, the new system is based on images. Just look at the homepage: all images. And with the selection option per country, it also seems practical to me. The difference with Loriot is that descriptions are already linked to the images before the list of images is complete. I don't see that as a problem. I think Loriot is working on creating a complete list of watermarks (?) with a unique description/name (=title) for each watermark that characterizes the watermark. And if someone thinks that is feasible, they should be given space. It is not a problem that there are now other names/descriptions for the image. It's a wiki, so just replace it. Unclear images can also be replaced. And when the last errors have been corrected, all relative characteristics have been changed into absolute characteristics, then the list should be given a final status. Well-intentioned changes along the lines of: 'I find another characteristic more characteristic than the characteristic mentioned.' In principle this is no longer possible. Changes are of course possible in fields other than the image and title. And the list that has then been created must then be copied 1 by 1 into the watermarks list in the stamp section. And preferably linked to a pop-up list per country, with at least the image.
What I see as the biggest problems now is creating the schematic images. I can scan watermarks on my stamps (if all goes well). However, as an illiterate person I cannot make a schematic representation of it. And that will apply to more importers. I see this as the major hurdle to making the proposed system of Helv and Collectioneur a success. In addition (or have I missed that?) it must be made clear what should be included in the image. Only the part on 1 stamp? The entire watermark if it is divided over, for example, 4 stamps. And maybe the entire sheet if there is a sheet watermark?
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Helv
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October 06, 2023 18:20
If you mean Lusitanian cross: the name of this watermark in English is “Maltese cross” and in French “Croix de Malte”.
Of course there are sites and/or catalogs that call this a Maltese cross, but a real Maltese cross looks different. Its origins also lie in another geographical region (represented by its name).

It is annoying that you continue to deny that we have indicated in advance that titles in other languages can currently only be displayed in one language. This has nothing to do with the availability of translations, but with the technical possibilities. The promise is that this is being worked on. This is important not only for watermarks, but for all items in "Other".

az60 There is no discussion about whether the title field should be in multiple languages. That's just how it should be.
If a recognizable scan is possible, it can now be added as the first image. If someone makes a sketch/drawing later, it can be uploaded as a second image, with the request to any administrator to reverse this order.

#9947099 is a sheet watermark, I have copied a recognizable part of it into the drawing. A stamp only shows a small part, in most cases even without a letter fragment. This can be seen in the photo of the entire sheet (second image).

#9953247 is a border watermark. For this I drew a piece which then repeated itself as can be seen in the photo in the second image.
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October 06, 2023 18:35
In any case, what I do agree with Loriot is that the title field should be in four languages. Absolute.

It has been reported that this is an omission from the current design of the Other section and therefore there is no point in harping on about it. The lack of translations has a considerable (international) impact for all subsections and it therefore certainly has our attention.
However, adjusting requires more than just flipping a switch, we will have to be patient.
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Helv
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October 07, 2023 15:56
az60 all Hungary schematic watermarks are now added under Other.
Can you check them?
Should other orientations and mirror images be added?
This should also be adjusted in the Stamps/watermarks list.

The schematic representations of the watermarks I added are all from the back of the stamp. The images now on the background page and in the Stamps/Watermarks list all appear to be from the stamp side.
What do we do about that?
  • We can replace the current pictures with the schematic representations
  • If all information has been copied correctly under Other, the chapter on watermarks could also be removed from the background page.

Furthermore, the Hungary area has been cleaned up in terms of watermarks. There are still two problems:
  • State coat of arms and coat of arms are different names for the same Hungarian watermark #9959093
  • Pentagram and star are different names for the same Hungarian watermark #9953237

I'm leaning towards merging Pentagram and Star for all areas in the Stamps/Watermarks list under Star . Pentagram is then added under star as a name variation.

There is also a "Zeitungs" watermark. However, I can't find what that looks like. The photos of the back of the only item in LD are not clear enough for me. Since it concerns 1 seal hole, not very urgent for now?


Collectioneur we always indicate in which period a watermark was used. Perhaps it would be useful to add an extra field with the last year of production (or something like that) in addition to the current year?

Collectioneur Can you also delete images uploaded in the administrator module?
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October 07, 2023 16:59
Helv
You mean the image that is near a staging area? This seems to me to be the same problem as removing a background page, but not yet. You can replace it.

I don't think it would be useful to add a second year field for the entire Other section. The period of production can easily be stated in Details.

Now that more watermarks have been introduced, the advantage of the overview per country is becoming increasingly clear. Partly due to the good schematic representations, this gives a better and calmer picture than the photos, which are sometimes not very clear.
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Helv
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October 07, 2023 18:36
The watermarks of the Netherlands have now also been added.

Collectioneur
You mean the image that is near a staging area? This seems to me to be the same problem as removing a background page, but not yet. You can replace it.
That is indeed the answer to the question I had. I know you can replace these. What it says now is wrong in my opinion, but I didn't want to immediately replace everything with the new sketches, which would be the only alternative.

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February 10, 2024 22:32
Helv
Can you add the watermark, W (portrait), is the watermark for e.g. this stamp #323757
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