Stamps/Value = Price?66 messages

For a while now I have been annoyed by the misuse of "price suggestions".

According to "van Dale Great Dictionary of the Dutch language" is:

Value : "... magnitude of the meaning that something has as possession, by content, as means to an end, by relation or by combination of these or some of these factors ...

1 meaning as property and object of exchange: that collection represents great value; the value is estimated at NLG 5000; the price of that item is out of proportion to its value ... "

Price: "... amount demanded or offered, received or spent in exchange for the provision of a good or service ..."

In short : the value of a stamp is an estimate whether or not by catalog and the statement at the end of an item of the "catalog value" is correct.

Where it goes wrong is:

- in the "explanation conditions": here one suddenly speaks of catalog prices instead of catalog values;

- at "price suggestions": should be "value suggestions".

Using "value" and "price" is therefore misleading, in that some collector-sellers enter the same amount for catalog value and their price in their shop ...

Please make an adjustment as soon as possible !!!

There is no pinpoint here ;-)

Value is an abstract concept. One way to make this concrete is to attach a price. We often do the latter in our catalogs.

There is therefore nothing wrong with users using the price of an item from the catalog as the selling price in their shop.

In addition, the database is programmed in such a way that if I put an item in my shop for an x-amount and no valuation of this item has yet taken place, the sales price automatically becomes the catalog value.

Daarnaast is de database zo geprogrammeerd dat als ik een item voor een x-bedrag in mijn shop zet en er heeft nog geen waardebepaling plaatsgevonden van dit item, de verkoopprijs automatisch de cataloguswaarde wordt.

Daar heb ik trouwens wel een groot probleem mee. Er staan veel te veel belachelijk hoge waardes in de catalogus, gebaseerd op de hebberigheid van een enkele aanbieder. Doordat de eurotekens in de ogen van die aanbieder klakkeloos worden overgenomen als cataloguswaarde krijgt de belachelijke prijs ten onrechte een geur van 'in orde zijn'. Het is de cataloguswaarde, dus het zal wel kloppen. Ik heb al eerderaangegeven dat daar vandaag of morgen ongelukken mee gebeuren.

In addition, the database is programmed in such a way that if I put an item in my shop for an x amount and no valuation of this item has yet taken place, the sales price automatically becomes the catalog value.

I do have a big problem with that though. There are far too many ridiculously high values in the catalog based on the greed of a single provider. Because the euro signs are indiscriminately taken over as catalog value in the eyes of the supplier, the ridiculous price wrongly acquires a smell of 'being in order'. It's the catalog value, so it must be correct. I have already indicated that accidents will happen with them today or tomorrow.

just read

source de Telegraaf.nl

More than 17,000 euros for Tintin album
BRUSSELS - A first edition of the Tintin album The Broken Ear was auctioned on Sunday for 17,400 euros. Banque Dessinée Auction House in Brussels has reported this.

Photo: ANP

In advance, the album, an original color edition in French from 1943, was estimated at 8,000 to 10,000 euros. Two other Tintin albums were auctioned for 15,000 and 12,000 euros.

Everyone is out of control here (from the stamps) so I do too ;-)

You just have to use your best judgment: Relying blindly on a list price is as stupid as buying an item without pictures or description.

Do try to bring light to the (prices) darkness.

As a stamp collector I have always paid and sold about the following.

The Michel catalog price X 20 to 27.5% for canceled neat stamps. For MNH a price of 30 to 40% of the Michel.

I think many will say now, yes that is the prevailing market value, otherwise I will hear it.

Another story is the price of a trader, who provides extra service and guarantees. Those prices are of course well above that. I think that is also right.

I look forward to the responses !!

In the meantime I have entered and entered about 10,000 prizes in the system, always based on the Michel.

Greetings Pieter stamp-swap

here too my criticism already expressed about the (automatic) determination of the catalog price applies. I have always paid 60% of the list price at my stamp dealer in The Hague, there is also a stamp dealer who simply asked for 100% of the list price and still asks. If I enter a price do I have to keep the 60% value or the 100% value.

See my criticism of the other forums ...

The value is what you want to pay for it yourself and that is never more than 25% of the catalog value, cheap ass I am

@ Morits = what other forums?

I would say drop 100% as a value. The actual value is expressed in sales prices by users. And then the retailer can ask his prices without any to be above the catalog value. A private seller can stunt with 10% of the value if he wants to get rid of his stamps quickly.

It is also the case that different catalogs mention different values, so those list prices are really not sacred. Yvert is usually much higher with news than Michel. By default, a retailer must ask for at least a full catalog for issues of the last 10 years if you work with Michel

I would say drop 100% as a value.

That's a nice… which 100% of what value?

From Michel ?,

From Yvert ?,

From Scott and then of the dollar exchange rate at the time of the Scott catalog or with the dollar exchange rate of today?

Same question from Gibbons regarding the pound rate?

From the N.V.P.H.?

From E-bay?

What is my minimum requirement?

What is the maximum I want to pay for it myself?

What the crystal ball of the gypsy tells me?

The value of the catalog is much too high by default, so anyone who does not understand it counts themselves (too) rich.

Ask someone who knows about stamps how much is that stamp worth and he will say 20% of the catalog value,

Who is pissing on whom?

Effe E-bayen or Marketplaces teaches that the catalog price is in any case not the (replacement) value of the stamp.

Since the internet it has been made (easier) possible for private individuals to buy or sell stamps en masse, prices have fallen dramatically and list prices have become a (bad) joke.

All those years before the internet era, were we massively hooked on by professional trade?

The Dutch catalog is published by N.V.P.H. (Dutch association of POSTZEGELHANDELAREN )

or we at WC duck recommend WC duck.

I mean how crooked is that, the trade that makes up the value itself?

I have always learned in economics that supply and demand and scarcity determine the price / value of a product.

Nowadays, thanks to the internet, a (smart) collector pays a price that is closer to the value ..

Since the internet it has been made (easier) possible for private individuals to buy or sell stamps en masse, prices have fallen dramatically and list prices have become a (bad) joke.

let's make use of this!

As you have already indicated, the offer + the requested price ultimately determines the value at any given time. and not some booklet, with how much care and presumably dedication this has been made, and often out of idialism, unfortunately, afterwards, commerce dived into it.

and Catawiki is not an auction, so it can only serve as a kind of guideline / compass

Als er wordt beweerd dat  postzegels "altijd tussen de 20 en 30% van de cataloguswaarde 'doen' is de volgende opmerking wel op zijn plaats:

Vele oude postfrisse zegels van Nederland en andere West- Europese landen brengen aanzienlijk hogere prijzen op, ook op veilingen. Een handelaar of verzamelaar die deze voor 25% aanbiedt is een dief van zijn eigen portomonnnee......en een koper die denkt een koopje te halen komt ook vaak bedrogen uit, want deze zegels zijn vaak nagegomd of hebben andere defecten.

Sinds internet is het (makkelijker) mogelijk gemaakt dat particulieren massaal postzegels (kunnen) (ver)kopen de prijzen dramatisch zijn gedaald en de catalogusprijzen zijn een (slechte) grap geworden.

En dan is het ook erg triest als je een 1899 Wilhelmina serie op Xbay voor 25% ziet passeren door een 'verzamelaar'  die een lijmattelier in zijn achterkamer heeft. Wat is dan de slechte grap? De catalogusprijs die redelijk in lijn ligt met hetgeen gecertificeerde series opbrengen,of de verzamelaar die bij de neus genomen wordt maar denkt -hahaha- dat hij een werelddeal heeft gesloten? (en het zijn vaak pas de erfgemamen die het ontdekken)

Het gebeurt niet zelden dat zegels in uitzonderlijke kwaliteit zelfs MEER dan de cataloguswaarde opbrengen.

Nieuwtjes die tegen 20% van de cataloguswaarde worden aangeboden moeten wel van een vrachtwagen afgevallen zijn.

Het is 'traditie' dat catalogi gemiddeld overwaarderen. Vooral Michel heeft een aantal stevige correcties gedaan. Er zijn altijd gebieden die sterk overgewaardeerd worden, maar er zijn ook veel zaken die ondergewaardeerd staan en meer opbrengen dan catalogusprijzen.

De prijzen zijn erg dynamisch. Enkele jaren geleden werd er soms 500% cataloguswaarde geboden voor vele CEPT zegels. De catalogusprijzen werden na 1-3 jaar gecorrigeerd. Toen kwam er een eind aan de speculatie en waren dezelfde CEPT zegels voor 15% cataloguswaarde te koop. Nu is de catalogusprijs weer aangepast en het percentage waarvoor ze aangeboden worden weer gestegen.In west- europa zit momenteel weinig speculatie, maar China, India, voormalig Oostblok zijn stijgend en deels booming.

Postfris Rusland van voor '40 is zo'n voorbeeld. Het is uiteindelijk vraag en aanbod die de prijs bepaald, en het grappige is dat die prijs door tal van factoren internationaal nog enorm kan variëren, omdanks alle transparantie die internet biedt. 

En een verzamelaar die niet voor 25 maar voor 60% gekocht heeft? Grote kans dat deze collectie gemiddeld van betere kwaliteit is.  er is - zeker bij klassieke zegels- nu eenmaal een belangrijke relatie tussen deze twee zaken.

If it is claimed that stamps "always 'make' between 20 and 30% of the catalog value, the following remark is in order:

Many old MNH stamps from the Netherlands and other Western European countries fetch considerably higher prices, also at auctions. A dealer or collector who offers these for 25% is a thief of his own wallet ...... and a buyer who thinks he can get a bargain is also often disappointed, because these stamps are often gummed up or have other defects.

Since the internet it has been made (easier) possible for private individuals to buy or sell stamps en masse, prices have dropped dramatically and list prices have become a (bad) joke.

And then it is also very sad when you see an 1899 Wilhelmina series on Xbay pass for 25% by a 'collector' who has a glue workshop in his back room. So what's the bad joke? The list price that is reasonably in line with what certified series fetch, or the collector who is taken by the nose but thinks -hahaha- that he has made a world deal? (and it's often only the heirs who find out)

It is not uncommon for stamps of exceptional quality to fetch even MORE than the catalog value.

Novelties that are offered at 20% of the catalog value must have fallen off a truck.

It is 'tradition' that catalogs are overvalued on average. Michel in particular has made some serious corrections. There are always areas that are highly overvalued, but there are also many areas that are undervalued and yield more than list prices.

Prices are very dynamic. A few years ago, 500% catalog value was sometimes offered for many CEPT stamps. List prices were corrected after 1-3 years. Then the speculation came to an end and the same CEPT stamps were for sale for 15% catalog value. Now the list price has been adjusted again and the percentage for which they are offered has risen again. There is currently little speculation in Western Europe, but China, India and the former Eastern Bloc are rising and partly booming.

Mint Russia before '40 is such an example. It is ultimately supply and demand that determines the price, and the funny thing is that this price can still vary enormously internationally due to many factors, despite all the transparency that the internet offers.

And a collector who bought not for 25 but for 60%? There is a good chance that this collection is of better quality on average. there is - certainly with classic stamps - an important relationship between these two things.

@ Erik,

I don't say it often, but when you talk about pre-war stamps you are right, they are also reasonably well priced due to the NVPH catalog,

But after the war it is really a different story some stamps from the 60s to 90s have a catalog value stamped of 20 cents (for example, rabbit heads of some I have more than 20,000 !!!)

Now you can come and get them for 1% of the value, namely 5 for 1 cent you make me happy.

They therefore have a catalog value of 100 x the price that is paid for them and why because the 'trade' has to do actions to process, store and retrieve the stamps when they are sold, also tax must be paid and the trader must also live .....

But that's why you don't have to exaggerate the value 100 x, the NVPH catalog will get a lot more confidence if they just honestly mention the many Koniginneng kopjes and other mass stamps (and don't start about the Wilhelmina of 62 cents because that is a bit rarer) just give the actual value of 1 cent and then the trader can just explain why he is asking 20 cents for it.

I mean I just say what many collectors think

In the early 80s, every city had several stamp dealers, you should be happy if every province still has one nowadays badger for good reason there is a lot of suspicion against the official trade (I did not invent the word Stamp Mafia) 80% of the stamp collectors never go to a stamp shop, they just don't know the trade. They are invisible.

Perhaps a tip for the NVPH to start a confidence offensive among collectors, you will find out that people under the age of 70 also collect stamps ;-)

And a collector who did not buy for 25 but for 60%? There is a good chance that this collection is of better quality on average. there is - certainly with classic stamps - an important relationship between these two things.

That's not true if you search well and understand it.

You don't pay 60% either, do you? That's when you sell you have to make a profit too ;-)

@Sinbad

You are right here, but the minimum catalog value no longer has anything to do with the value of the object, but with the handling. I don't know if you are happy if you have a shop with only 1 cent stamps and I place an order of 100 different stamps from different countries. I can assure you that it will take you an hour and that it cannot be done commercially. I recently had a customer who selected 200 10 cent DDR stamps. So after an hour I was 20 euros richer, while the security engineer mounted a new sensor at my place at the same time at 60 euros per hour. I don't grumble about that, but it does indicate that even 10 cents per stamp is commercially too cheap.

If you buy such a stamp from me in the store 1, I pick a nice one for you, have a chat with you, put a bag around it, and give you a cash register and pin receipt that is a heavily loss-making transaction. If you buy 200 in a package, you pay 2 cents per stamp, and if you buy a bundle of 100, you can have them for 50 cents or half a cent.

The N.V.P.H. is a catalog published by the stamp trade, and I would find it illogical to put a stamp in it for 1 cent if no dealer is willing to take out his book. Every collector knows that by the way and in addition there is hardly any trade in these stamps. So what are you worried about? If you ever buy 100 different stamps from a duppie you will lose a tenner and have a nice afternoon to put them in your album and if you fill up your car you will be 100 euros poorer and you will be annoyed in a traffic jam .

There are also not many shops that are happy to sell you 1 button of 3 cents or 1 candy for 4 cents, even though those things are really not worth a penny. In that respect, we have a high service character in the stamp trade.

The fact that stamp shops are disappearing from the streets has nothing to do with trust. but more so with sky-high rents in shopping centers and high labor costs, and with a declining number of collectors. for a little building you lose € 30,000 per year in rent, with all additional costs. Then you are not yet on Passage (and there is one!) Or in the PC Hooft.

Another factor is that a small stamp shop requires a high investment.

In addition, the Internet offers much better sales opportunities, so that you can also sell less common countries for which there is hardly any regional demand.

I have many customers who buy from my store precisely because they find internet sales scary. I also have many customers who order from me via the Internet because they like the fact that there is a 'real' store behind it. And I recently had a customer who recently proudly showed me a complete (!) MNH collection of the Netherlands because he had bought them so cheaply on the internet. Too bad they were all facimiles.

Perhaps a tip for the NVPH to start a confidence offensive among collectors, you will find out that people under the age of 70 also collect stamps ;-)

All traders registered with the Chamber of Commerce fall under the legal guarantee and return rules. Members of the N.V.P.H. deliver according to the N.V.P.H. certificate rules, whereby a dissatisfied customer can turn to a disputes committee. And the N.V.P.H. internet shops are usually affiliated with the N.V.P.H. Intermet certificate offering additional guarantees.

Wilhelmina of 62 cents

I don't know it, it must be a very special one. Who does know it?

In the meantime I have entered and entered about 10,000 prizes in the system, always based on the Michel.

We do not intend to adopt the Michel prizes in its entirety. Michel is just one of the leading catalogs. Although Michel is on average a bit closer to the market, these prices are not sacred either. Price corrections based on Michel prices will therefore be rejected. The intention is that Catawiki prices will ultimately be sensibly related to supply and demand prices.

In addition, Michel often values stamped as 'verifiably stamped'. Because this is not in line with the average offer, we are going to change that, so that prices of stamped old Germany and Switzerland will be substantially lower. (A 4th column will be introduced later)

As long as this is not the case, the prices of a number of large internet shops are carefully considered. this means (also referring to the post of postmaster) often somewhat lower prices for the weak period 1960-1985 and somewhat higher prices for the period 2000-2010, and I think that the price ratios are therefore also slightly better than in the michel.

Using "value" and "price" is therefore misleading, in that some collector-sellers enter the same amount for catalog value and their price in their shop ...

Hm, Tapir, and how should I place the sometimes used phenomenon 'Net catalog' in this? A catalog where value and price are the same?

I also sometimes see that the sales price is HIGHER than the catalog value .....

I think that the terms 'catalog value' and 'list price' - regardless of whether this is correct or not - are constantly used interchangeably in practice, and that there can therefore be no question of deception.

And a 'catalog' of a company (or stamp dealer) can also be just a booklet with ITS selling prices. And in that case it is indeed the catalog PRICE.

@ Erik,

the minimum catalog value no longer has anything to do with the value of the object, but with the handling.

Mmmmm ... according to me the catalog value has everything to do with the value of the object and therefore nothing whatsoever with handling, the action makes the transaction more expensive but the value of the stamp remains the same.

Namely value of stamp 1 cent, transaction 19 cents, price is 20 cents,

(catalog) value 1 cent

Wilhelmina of 62 cents

I don't know it, it must be a very special one. Who does know it?

Juliana, ok, but you can also chat vaguely ..

If you buy 200 in a package, you pay 2 cents per stamp, and if you buy a bundle of 100, you can have them for 50 cents or half a cent.

So what are you worried about?

I just give an opinion on the forum, you respond extensively 3 times at 2 am ????,

I don't mind but saying every time that I worry while you do it yourself starts to work on my laughing muscles.

Greetings Sinbad

@Sinbad

You have told me that as an order picker you are at a good N.V.P.H. colleagues - as well as chairman of the Catalog Committee - of mine. Then you know what is involved and I do not think it is right for you to question the integrity of the stamp trade in general.

@Sinbad

Since the internet it has been made (easier) possible for private individuals to buy or sell stamps en masse, prices have fallen dramatically and list prices have become a (bad) joke.

You see this really wrong. In the 1960s, collectors across Western Europe began buying stamps in sheets of 100. These were carefully preserved until they gave the pipe to Maarten and their heirs brought the skins to the market. For every sheet that a merchant buys, he must recruit 100 new collectors. A collection

A trader also does not have an elastic wallet and is therefore less and less willing to buy the stamps. That causes price pressure. It is therefore mainly the material from the period 1960-1990 that has fallen dramatically in price. In the 1960s and 1970s, China was seen as a 'monkey country' and not a dealer or collector who bought it unused, certainly not in skins. You can see the consequences now, but in a positive sense. And classic Western European stamps that are really scarce have also often risen sharply in price.

It is not the trade, but ultimately the collector that sets the price, especially in a market where the speculator has withdrawn.

@ Erik,

Exactly and I have had many discussions with him about this, if the NVPH simply puts fairer values on, for example, the queen's heads and other mass seals, the other (pre-war) values and the NVPH itself are also taken more seriously,

Erik, collectors know that the stamped queen's cup is not worth 20 cents. They have no understanding of Willem III stamps, but if the queen's head is nonsense, that information with Willem III will also be incorrect, that is logical,

It is not my fault that the NVPH is taken much less seriously than about 20 years ago and there are also not that much less collectors than in the past, only they are more invisible to the trade, the NVPH just does not know that they are collecting via marketplace and E-bay

I have been approached about this very often by customers and I am sure you are too.

I do not want to question the integrity of the stamp trade at all, but there are a few things that are incorrect in my opinion and I can say something about that.

That man who happily comes in with a shoe box full of queen's heads according to the catalog a 20 cents worth at least 4,000 euros real value 1 euro max and that is your first acquaintance with the fillatelie

I had not been an order picker there, but a salesman, but that aside.

And again I understand that the trade cannot sell a stamp of 1 cent for 1 cent, but that does not change the (catalog) value and the price, but that is something different, right?

and in my opinion it is flawed and I speak to the NVPH about that, they cause damage (people think they are unnecessarily rich) and affect their own (NVPH) credibility, you do not need Sinbad for this

Greetings

Sinbad

Not only the NVPH, but all catalogs set a reserve price. Only Facit does it differently, it puts an M (or other letter) down. It's nothing new, and there will always be a few collectors who falsely count themselves rich with an album of dime stamps.

But you also understand that if the NVPH sets a price of 1 cent that would require questions and explanation in the store every time you ask 10 cents for that stamp. You can take it for granted that the number of collectors who do not understand this is much greater than the number of collectors who do not understand that a mass stamp does not yield two doubles.

It is much worse if you think that the expensive MNH series that you have bought cheaply is worth a lot while it turns out to be a re-gummed series. That adds up to a lot more than the few tens that you have to 'write off' from your Netherlands collection for the mass value.

Incidentally, Catawiki also has a minimum list price ......

There are also not that much less collectors than in the past

I think the number of collectors has fallen, just a little less dramatically than some think.

Of course many collect via the internet, but the sum of: fewer members of associations, sharply decreased circulation of Monthly magazine philately, decline in sales of supplements (from the publisher's point of view), decline in Collectclub subscriptions and circulation of special issues, etc. are a sign on the wall. Of course collecting has changed, of course supplements are sometimes replaced by stockbooks, there is more thematic collection etc. but that does not compensate enough.

The many collectors that still exist can spend more money on their hobby.

This applies throughout Western Europe, but certainly not internationally. In the former Eastern Europe and the Far East, the number of collectors is increasing due to increasing prosperity.

That man who happily comes in with a shoe box full of queen's heads, according to catalog worth at least 4,000 euros, worth at least 4,000 euros, real value 1 euro max and that is your first introduction to the fillatelie

You should not make an offer like that, but tell them that all those stamps have different stamps and that it is very nice to collect all those different stamps. If he has a genuine interest in stamps, you can recruit a new collector as a good seller and that first acquaintance can be very surprising.

I usually say: I don't buy them because I already have enough, but you probably know a starting collector in your area who can make you very happy with them.

My daughter (well, it really is carrying water to the sea) asks when we will go to the Postex again because she always gets those beautiful stamps there..partly made available by ... don't be alarmed ... the NVPH . And she really does not care at all that those stamps are in the catalog at 20 cents each and yield less than a cent.

So you never had them in your store?

From those families with banana boxes full of 1980s FDCs, grandfather's legacy. Is worth 10,000 euros according to the catalog, the whole family has already booked a trip to the Bahamas with the proceeds?