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December 29, 2023 18:30
What is the reason for the printing technique "rotary press printing"
to be banished to the bin?
Thousands of stamps have been printed in this way in both the United States and France and are mentioned explicitely as such in different catalogues.
Scott writes about this:
"The Rotary Press stamps are printed from plates that are curved to fit around a cylinder. This curvature poduces stamps that are slightly larger, either horizontally and vertically, than those printed from flat plates."
 It is sour for me that for the second time this week I will be obliged to use the "details box" again.
What's the next stunt? Happy New Year???
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December 29, 2023 19:13
I just want to say that it can be an intaglio print, a raster intaglio print, a copper intaglio print or a steel intaglio print, regarding stamps. A raster intaglio print is easy to distinguish, a copper intaglio print and a steel intaglio print are more difficult to distinguish from each other. What matters here is whether the plate was made of copper or steel. In German, these last two printing techniques are therefore called Stichtiefdruck. Translation is an etching or stitch intaglio print. Unfortunately, the name steel intaglio printing is often used for both of these printing techniques.

It is a good thing that the rotary printing press is gone, because this machine can be used to make intaglio, planographic and relief prints, and is therefore not really a printing technique.

#298627

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotatiepers
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December 30, 2023 04:44
Charles1971
Raster intaglio printing can be used for printing with sheet insert and for printing on a roll. Sometimes a printer switches from sheet insertion to printing on the roll. There may also be a switch to another printer with a more modern 'machinery' (printing on the roll). There are stamps that were initially printed with sheet inlay, but later with printing on the roll. We see this more often with long-term postage stamps. There may then be observable differences between these two pressures. So those are variants. In principle, plates used for sheet insertion cannot be used for pressure on the roller. In principle, a new mold must be made, which may show differences with the original mold. Things such as pressure direction can also cause differences between the 2 techniques used. There are actually no suitable fields to indicate the variant for these differences. The difference in printing technique is what we need. This best illustrates where you can expect the difference. Now that I think about it, I agree with the comment (substantive) of Loriot. The sheet insert/press option on the roll was functional and could have been better retained (Helv, sorry). It also immediately makes it clear that printing technology is different from printing methodology and that they should therefore not actually be classified in one field.
You would have been right, Charles, if the issue of variants didn't exist. Then the addition of the printing technique 'Veil inlay/Press on the roll' would be nothing more than fun and interesting, but completely unnecessary, information to name your stamp.
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December 30, 2023 08:26
I assume that by 'Sheet insert/Roll printing', Plate printing and Rotary printing you mean az60 ?.
There may then be observable differences between these two pressures

What observable differences are there then az60 ?.

For example, I know from a Berlin series (1956 Berlin Cityscapes) that you can only see the pressure difference on the sheet edge and the writing on it. Not the stamp itself.

But perhaps you know of other examples where the difference can be seen on the stamp itself?
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December 30, 2023 11:27
This curvature poses stamps that are slightly larger, either horizontally and vertically, than those printed from flat plates.

In principle, a new mold must be made, which may show differences with the original mold.
If switching to a different printing technology results in a slightly different image, then we have a Type Variety. It also happens often enough that plates wear out during long-running series and new plates are made. In the distant past when plates had to be engraved entirely manually, this caused differences. You can clearly see this with the English stamps from 1874. Here the plate number is included in the stamp itself.

In modern times, 1 master is used to create all the images on a plate (or cylinder).
In that case, the chance of plate and type variations is much smaller. With modern stamps you can often only find this out by information on the sheet edge (and the availability of background information).

When switching from plate printing to rotary printing, there is usually also a switch from sheets of paper to rolls of paper. These types of paper may have different properties. Is the printing technique the cause, or the paper, or the combination?

The option of sheet insertion/pressure on the roll was functional
Only one scenario was covered with this information. Within intaglio printing, it is more common for the paper (fiber) orientation to change between badges. Fortunately, this difference is also overcome by "Type Variety".



It also immediately makes it clear that printing technology is different from printing methodology and that they should therefore not actually be classified in one field.
Indeed, as a (classic) collector you would like to be able to distinguish between intaglio printing and rotary printing (process), regardless of the printing technique.
My personal opinion is that there are relatively few issues here where it is really important. For the greater good (ie the vast majority of collectors and stamps) we shouldn't make it too complicated. I think it would indeed be better to mention this information under "Particulars" or on the background page of the Issue.


"The Rotary Press stamps are printed from plates that are curved to fit around a cylinder. These curvature poduces stamps that are slightly larger, either horizontally and vertically, than those printed from flat plates."
Let's turn this comment around:
There are 67,230 stamps in the catalog stating that they were printed with steel intaglio printing.
Do we agree that only a fraction of this number is produced using intaglio printing and the vast majority using rotary printing?

I have considered merging steel intaglio printing and rotogravure printing and creating a new type for steel intaglio printing using plate printing (because that ultimately requires fewer actions), for example this list:
  • Steel intaglio printing [rotary printing]
  • Steel intaglio printing [plate printing]
  • Copper intaglio printing [plate printing]
  • Raster intaglio printing [copper intaglio printing]
However, we continue to mix process and technique and it does not become any clearer for the collector (and managers) of modern stamps.

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February 16, 2024 23:04
Helv 
Let's turn this comment around:
 There are 67,230 stamps in the catalog stating that they were printed with steel intaglio printing.
 Do we agree that only a fraction of this number is produced using intaglio printing and the vast majority using rotary printing? 
I note that yesterday, in the printing techniques, "Steel engraving [will be merged]" was replaced by "  | Steel engraving", without any mention to the users.
This way you think to be right for the umpteenth time, with again many incorrect informations.
Where do you get the number 67,230 items from? Today there are 63,640 items with the printing technique "Steel engraving" or 3,590 items less! 
And then we have to subtract from 63,640 the number of items that you have now added with the technique "rotation press printing" et al.
You become more and more unreliable every day. In addition, you oblige me to add the technique "rotation gravure" to the details together with others (this applies to a lot of stamps printed in the USA and in France, among others).  
 
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February 17, 2024 01:07
Loriot steel intaglio printing also occurs as "Combination of screen intaglio printing and steel intaglio printing", "Combination of offset printing and steel intaglio printing" and "Combination of letterpress printing and steel intaglio printing".

Excel now has a total of 75,494 stamps with intaglio printing.

Of course, it is always possible that I made a typo in December, but surely someone would have called me out on that a month and a half ago?

Before the merging the day before yesterday, there were approximately 57,000 stamps in the "Steel Intaglio Printing" category. Both other categories had approximately 3,000 stamps. Even if I'm wrong, 10,000 stamps only makes a 1% difference. This does not alter the argument given earlier.

As a reminder, if a difference in printing technique leads to a visible difference, a type variety will automatically arise. Almost all stamps are made with rotary printing technologies. It seems more logical to me to mention if a stamp is printed with plates.

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February 17, 2024 02:22
Helv 
Your explanation is fantastic as always!!!
 There are 67,230 stamps in the catalog stating that they were printed with steel intaglio printing. 
I just read what it says: you don't mention combinations.
Of course, it is always possible that I made a typo in December, but surely someone would have called me out on that a month and a half ago? 
And because your decision has only just been made, is it forbidden to respond?
 Before the merging the day before yesterday, there were approximately 57,000 stamps in the "Steel Intaglio Printing" category. Both other categories had approximately 3,000 stamps. Even if I'm wrong, 10,000 stamps only makes a 1% difference. 
1% of which number???
Why do the catalogs (not Michel) talk about rotary press printing for some stamps and others  flat plate printing? And this is simply pushed aside by you: it's just a detail in you mind.
I almost forgot to thank you for the hours I now have to spend again to state in the field "details" which stamps were printed by the rotary press.
Still not understood that philately consists of details?
N.B. On January 3 I asked you and postmaster a question (see China expeditionary Force (C.E.F.)
I still have no answer at all.
Is there also a period of one and a half months in force?
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February 17, 2024 15:34
"The Rotary Press stamps are printed from plates that are curved to fit around a cylinder. These curvature poduces stamps that are slightly larger, either horizontally and vertically, than those printed from flat plates."

Do you have examples Loriot , of stamps, with the same issue date or the same issue, that have a plate intaglio printing and a rotogravure printing?.
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February 17, 2024 16:29
Charles1971 
Example:
The following stamps were issued in the United States in 1938:
the "Presidents" series consisting of 32 stamps:
- partly with rotary press printing (29)
- and partly equipped with flat plate pinting (3)
In that year, 17 other stamps were issued:
- partly with rotary press printing (16)
- partly with flat plate printing (1).
This alternation of rotary press printing and flat plate printing started 1915. 
Scott thinks it's important enough to mention this, so am I.
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February 17, 2024 16:58
So then it is no problem to mention Loriot in the details. Or do you think it is really necessary to mention rotogravure printing for every rotogravure print?
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February 17, 2024 17:12
According to Wikipedia (quoting Scott):
Values from 1⁄2 cent through 50 cents were printed in sheets on a rotary press and perforated 11 x 10 1⁄2, while the two-colored 1, 2 and 5 dollar stamps required flat-plate printing and were perforated 11 on all sides.[5]
So, as I understand it, no values were printed in both techniques. Which makes it impossible to compare the printed results. Or am I wrong?
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February 17, 2024 17:29
Charles1971 
Scott thinks it's important enough to mention this, so am I.
Have you really not read this? Back to school with you!
In fact, you had the answer ready before I answered because you think you know everything much better... 
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February 17, 2024 17:36
because you think you know everything much better...

You only think that Loriot, because I think that you think that you know everything much better.
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February 17, 2024 17:48
Charles1971 
Admit it, you already prove you know better than Scott. Those are silly and completely irrelevant for you.
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February 17, 2024 17:53
Okay Loriot , hard facts. How can you tell, for example #1116305 , whether this is a rotary print or an intaglio print? Without a written catalogue?.
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February 17, 2024 18:02
Charles1971 
Why not look at the history of this item yourself. Everything then becomes clear.
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February 17, 2024 19:33
To be honest Loriot , it doesn't really get any clearer. Not even with regard to rotary printing and plate printing.
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February 17, 2024 20:19
Charles1971 
Or the realization that you are less smart than expected.
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February 17, 2024 20:37
Or the realization, who I am Loriot ?. Because I know who and what I am, and what I know.
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February 17, 2024 20:53
In 2015, steel intaglio printing was added to this Loriot stamp #1116305 . What's wrong with this, just that the name is wrong?. Stichtiefdruck is not steel intaglio printing in German, but this is beside the point.

Or is it a translation problem?.
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February 17, 2024 21:13
Charles1971
Still: you don't read well and you don't want to read everything to get it right. And then you implicitly claim that postmaster is already a fool.
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February 17, 2024 21:28
I believe, or rather, I'm sure Loriot this is your train of thought. This is definitely not mine.

By the way, it's still about rotational printing.
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February 17, 2024 21:49
Charles1971 
Still not understood, unfortunately...
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February 17, 2024 21:54
Charles1971
The very first American postage stamp printed with rotary printing.
Released 30.06.1914
Stanley Gibbons No. 459
Impertinent
Most have been subsequently serrated by the US Automatic Vending Machine Company



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