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December 21, 2022 09:39
Bpost is in the LD list of printers. Now I am working with Luxembourg stamps and they indicate that there are two printers Bpost? . 1) Bpost Stamps factory, Mechelen
2) Bpost-Stamps factory, Malines

Are these two different printers, both of which carry out assignments for Bpost, or is it one printing company? Maybe someone knows more?.
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December 21, 2022 10:30
Charles1971
Mechelen (Flemish) = Malines (Walloon), so it depends on which language you use.
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December 21, 2022 11:04
1) Bpost Stamps factory, Mechelen 2) Bpost Stamps factory, Malines

Mechelen = Dutch (or German), Malines = French.
Belgium has 3 official national languages, and different language areas (or zones).
For example, an area 'Dutch', an area 'French', an area 'German', an area 'Dutch with language facilities for French speakers', ...


1 = Dutch description. But why 'factory' ... I thought of 'Stamp printing company' earlier.
2 = description in Franglais (a cross between English and French, was used by, among others, the late Arno van Oostende, from the Westvlanders :)).

If 2 wants to evoke the international name, it should say 'Mechelen'. Mechelen is located in the Flemish part of Belgium, where Dutch is the official language. That 2nd name is, in my opinion, rather absurd than useful.

Fun fact: it is there that the 'inverted Dendermonde' was made. One of the most expensive stamps in the world.
Of the 18 pieces in circulation, 17 owners are known. 1 has still not surfaced.
Perhaps that one is among the 22 collectors who have placed the reversed Dendermonde in their collection on LD.
By the way, I wonder if the adder used his own scan for this.

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December 21, 2022 11:40
Thanks 7451Dick and Raoul62 , it's clear to me now. Strange what translations do indeed, quite confusing. It's just a printing company, but apparently every language wants to make it a separate one.
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January 06, 2023 15:55
Raoul62 (and 7451Dick ) a related question:
Is there a difference between the printing company in the database called "BPost" and the one called "Belgische Post"?

If not, can "Belgische Post" expire? Or can it be added as an alias to "BPost".

Should the city of Mechelen be added to BPost? Or will we get into trouble with the first stamps that, according to Google, were printed in Brussels?
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January 06, 2023 19:05
Firms, including printing companies of the government postal services, sometimes move and sometimes change names. PostNL will probably not have borne that name in 1895 either, I assume.
It seems appropriate to keep original names.
There are also printing companies that are 'absorbed' or merged. So they get a different name. extending that new name to the past would be absurd.
the stamp printing office of the Belgian Post Office has also moved to larger or more modern premises.
If you attach importance to it, then seal printing company Mechelen is not the same as stamp printing company Brussels, and you will continue to work with 2 names.
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January 06, 2023 19:31
Raoul62 "BPost" and "Belgian Post" do not seem to me synonymous for the printing companies in Mechelen and Brussels. Most stamps in LD are placed with printing company BPost. Only 5 items are linked to "Belgian Post" and are fairly modern in nature. Mi overlapping with BPost.
See eg #5307649 and #5097184 .


On a Dutch site I found that Publibels were printed by the "Zegelwerkplaats Mechelen" (at least for the mail part, not for the advertising part). However, this "Seal Workshop" is again not in the list of printing companies?

If you are sure that "BPost" and "Belgische Post" are different printing companies, that's fine with me.


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January 06, 2023 19:40
Didn't say. However, companies often change names. and I think those different names should be kept. As well as the name of the printing company if the location must be included.

Here and there you can find something about it. I have no ambition to delve into that history.

"The first stamps - including the well-known "Epaulettes" of HM King Léopold I - were then printed in premises in Brussels North Station. "

"In addition to introducing a faster and cheaper printing technique, rotogravure printing, the printing company moved from Brussels North Station to Mechelen."

"The stamp printing house was founded in 1993 and replaced the Atelier du timbre de Bruxelles , which had already moved to Mechelen in 1868."

"To this day we find bpost's stamp printing company in Mechelen "

In other words, the printer would not bear 'bPost', but would bear the name 'Stamp printer of bPost'.


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January 06, 2023 19:43
"Seal workshop" may have been an erroneous translation of 'Atelier du timbre'. I have always heard and read 'Stamp Printing'.
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January 06, 2023 20:58
I don't want to do historical research here, that's for specialists. Because who can find out exactly what is printed where and can change this?
The Belgian postal service was called De Post/La Poste and became BPost in 2010. This company does the mail delivery, so how far do we call this the "printing company"?
In the printing works we find General Workshop of the Seal Brussels, Zegeldrukkerij van Mechelen, Stamps Production Belgium and a few smaller ones.
BPost before 2010 is certainly not possible, BPost from 2010 is not a printing company for me and Belgian Post seems to me as much as "I don't know".

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January 07, 2023 11:02
Raoul62 the original name seems to have been "General Workshop of the Seal". Presumably the Dutchman made this "Zegelwerkplaats", while in Flanders "Zegeldrukkerij" is the common term.

General workshop of the Seal
In 1868 the "General Workshop of the Seal" moved from Brussels to Mechelen. The activities were then continued in Mechelen under the same name. As far as I can tell, this remained the official name until 2012. Unofficially, the shorter term Zegeldrukkerij has undoubtedly come into vogue. I have added "Algemene Werkplaats van het Zegel, Mechelen" as an alias to the "Zegeldrukkerij". Strictly speaking, the alias should be "Stamp Printing" in my opinion, but that aside.

In 2012 the name was changed to BPost stamp printing company. Raoul62 and user-1713548 (and others!) since there are entries with BPost from 2004, it seems to me that many stamps are wrong in LD. In principle, it is still the same "General workshop of the Zegel/Atelier de timbre".

I see two options:
1) Merge "Bpost" and "Zegeldrukkerij (Mechelen)" and add sufficient terms such as Alias;
2) Let "BPost" exist separately (with the name "BPost stamp printer"). A volunteer may (one day) convert all stamps between 2004 and 2012.

Stamps Production Belgium
Between 2008 and 2020, a thousand stamps were brought in with the printer "Stamps Production Belgium". I couldn't find a printing company by that name. I suspect this is derived from "Stamp Printing Office" and "Stamps Factory". The latter two are both linked to the "Zegeldrukkerij Mechelen".

Can I merge these stamps "Stamps Production Belgium" and "Zegeldrukkerij Mechelen".

Sips-Cattoir Brussels & Seal Printing Mechelen
Incidentally, 5 stamps (First Orval with overprint) showed a combination of two printing companies (one of the stamp and one of the overprint). That's not allowed. I prefer to fill in the printing company of the overprint on that spot (the other can be found with the original stamp). For details I have filled in both printers (on the basis of other stamps). It would be good if someone could double check that I didn't flip it. I don't have an OBP.

Publiable
The postal stationery part of the Publibel cards was printed by Zegeldrukkerij Mechelen. In principle, these should therefore be merged under the name Zegeldrukkerij Mechelen. However, I imagine it's more convenient to wait for the publisher field to become available.


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January 07, 2023 11:06
fpvanhoutte can you please take a look at the above?

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January 07, 2023 17:48
I think it is good to give the good name of a printing company. Perhaps not all data from the past can still be retrieved. But if it is possible to accurately indicate the data we now have, from the current printing companies, is that okay?

Example Germany, Reichsdruckerei, Staatsdruckerei, Bundesdruckerei and Bundesdruckerei GmbH. All the same printing company, all in Berlin.

Incidentally, the Bundesdruckerei GmbH, founded in July 1994, is not yet on the list.
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January 07, 2023 18:31
Helv However, I imagine it's more convenient to wait for the publisher field to become available.
This is the right attitude.
Bpost is not a printer but a publisher.
The name given in 2019 by Bpost itself for the printing activities in Mechelen is "Zegeldrukkerij" (NL) and "Imprimerie du Timbre" (F).
See  #7591819#7591665 and #7691703.
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January 07, 2023 19:54
Charles1971 one of the tough questions is what to do with relocations, name changes, mergers and divisions. From a manageability point of view, I think the only solution is to keep using the name that was in vogue at the time of printing/release. However, this is often quite difficult to achieve. In addition, quite a few stamps are already filled in incorrectly, which you can only solve quickly by, for example, not making a difference between Bundesdruckerei and Bundesdruckerie GmbH.

In the case of Germany I came across the following names (all in Leipzig):
VEB Wertpapierdruckerei
VEB Deutsche Wertpapierdruckerei
Deutsche Wertpapierdruckerei
VEB Wertpapierdruckerei der DDR
Wertpapierdruckerei

As far as I can find out now by looking at the bulk of the stamps, numbers 2 to 4 are the same printing company. However, this is also registered as VEB Wertpapierdruckerei in the German archives. However, the VEB Wertpapierdruckerei is associated with a number of Berlin stamps in LD. I suspect someone entered that wrong at some point, but I'm not the area specialist. It's about this list . Anyone who knows the good name can say it. I myself suspect Bundesdruckerei (Bonn).

The "Wertpapierdruckerei" is again the same printing company, but after the German reunification (and part of G+D, or Gieseke & Devrient". If I am not mistaken, Gieseke & Devrient was also the owner of the same printing company before the nationalization in the GDR .

Or to put the last bit easier:
1852 Hermann Giesecke and Alphonse Devrient found the Giesecke & DeVrient printing company in Leipzig for high-quality printing (banknotes, stocks and a few Old German stamps).

1945 The printing company in Leipzig is nationalized and continues as VEB (Deutsche) Wertpapierdruckerei.

1948 Siegfried Otto, the husband of Jutta Devrient (a descendant of ..), re-establishes Giesecke & Devrient in Munich.

1990 Giesecke & Devrient (Munich) takes over VEB (Deutsche) Wertpapierdruckerei (Leipzig). The branch in Leipzig is called Werk Wertpapierdruckerei Leipzig.





Some sources:
https://www.moneypedia.de/index.php/VEB_Deutsche_Wertpapierdruckerei
https://www.gi-de.com/en/group/company/history
https://ddr-briefmarken.de.tl/DDR-Briefmarken.htm
https://www.perspektiven-finden.com/unternehmen/giesecke-devrient-currency-technology-gmbh-werk-wertpapierdruckerei-leipzig


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January 07, 2023 20:32
My option Helv would be to indicate the printers as they are currently called (with years). The printing company you found belongs to Gieseke, mine belongs to the Bundesdruckerei (Staatsdruckerei, Reichsdruckerei) in Berlin.

Adding the Bundesdruckerei GmbH option does not mean that everything has to be converted immediately. Only the new entries are then entered correctly and the older entries are adjusted if necessary. But I think it was about Bpost?.
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January 08, 2023 09:16
It's about this list . Anyone who knows the good name can say it. I myself suspect Bundesdruckerei (Bonn).

Just checked this Helv with Germany. 1949-1951 Staatsdrukkerij, in 1951 the name was changed to Bundesdrukkerij. This printing company is located in Berlin. This information was with Germany and not specifically with Berlin, but Berlin often mentions the name Bundesdrukkerij. As long as no other printing company is indicated for Germany, it is always the Bundesdrukkerij.
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January 08, 2023 09:51
And here a little more information about the Reichsdruckerei, here are also all dates of the name changes of this printing company. http://variatio-delectat.com/59Die_Reichsdruckerei.pdf
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January 08, 2023 10:49
In a nutshell Helv ,
Königlich Prussische Staatsdruckerei (1/7/1852-1/4/1879)
Reichsdruckerei (6/7/1879-31/5/1945)
Staatsdruckerei (1/6/1945-1951)
Bundesdruckerei (1952-30/6/1994)
Bundesdruckerei GmbH (1/7/1994-Present)
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January 08, 2023 18:12
Helv or the other administrator involved. If the printing company does not translate, which is very good in my opinion, only brings confusion, it is not necessary to put Berlin or Germany in the title. I do think it is necessary to enter the correct dates, so 1/7/1852-1/4/1879, for any expenses in these months.
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January 08, 2023 18:28
Charles1971 thanks for the review! In consultation with the postmaster, I added the years to the printing companies. We will continue to operate Bundesdruckerei and Bundesdruckerei GmbH under one name (without GmbH). The past shows that too many mistakes are made here and people do not know which of the two to choose. There was already a short background page at the Bundesdruckerei, I added the overview above.

Also, the background pages of all older names now refer to the Bundesdruckerei.
Incidentally, Bundesdruckerei is incorrectly filled in on a few old stamps:
https://www.lastdodo.nl/nl/areas/1550049-bundesdruckerei-berlin-duitsland?from=&to=1951
Unfortunately enough work for volunteers to adapt it :-(.
Collectioneur or is something like this possible through a script. I can come up with a pseudo-code.
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January 08, 2023 18:35
Incidentally, Bundesdruckerei is incorrectly filled in on a few old stamps:

What items are you referring to as I can't find them. postmaster may have already merged them with the correct name.
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January 08, 2023 18:41
Helv before 30-06-1994 Bundesdruckerei, after this date Bundesdruckerei GmbH. Seems clear to me.
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January 08, 2023 19:06
By the way Helv and @postmaster , respect for your work, it must have taken a whole Sunday afternoon?. I think it was quite a bite to get all this organized a bit. But if everything is right now, it's great.
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January 08, 2023 20:03
Charles1971
Helv
If one is busy with the printing companies, it is not Belgium, but it is somewhat in the same street.
Concerns the stamps of Austria from 1850 to 1918
These stamps are printed by Kk Hof- und Staatsdruckerei, Wien
I have already adjusted this with a lot of these stamps for Austria in 2015.
And as I saw some time ago someone whose Account has been deleted has changed them to Österreichische Staatsdruckerei [Vienna, Austria], but this cannot be because this name was only introduced in 1918 by name change of the Kk Hof- und Staatsdruckerei, Wien
So my question is on this, what do we do with this now.
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