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Helv
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December 09, 2021 11:40
I have the following stamp in my collection:

This stamp has a comb serration 13 1/2: 13 1/4.

According to the Zagorskii catalog this number is R5 and is included with the year 1919. This stamp is almost the same as Zag 157, but with a different perforation and the honeycomb pattern in the paper has a different orientation.

In the Michel catalog this stamp is listed under the edition 1910/1919 (so with the year 1910) as Mi 79 Dy.

Question 1: Is this stamp equal to #1269269?
If yes (aartinge):
a) Can the perforation be changed from 13 1/2 to F13 1/2 : 13 1/4?
b) Should the year be adjusted to 1919?
c) Should the country be changed to Russia [1918-1923]?

If not:
d) Does this stamp belong with the issue "1915 Stamp types of 1889, 1906 and 1909"?
      This name no longer corresponds to the current Michel catalog (which writes 1910/1919).
e) Does this stamp fall under Russia [1918-1923] (based on the date of issue and Zagorskii) or does this stamp fall under Russia [1857-1917] (based on Michel classification)?

Question 2: Separate stamp or (perforation) variety
A similar stamp was issued in 1917, but as I already wrote with a different perforation and a different direction of the pattern in the paper. Is it correct that the differences are big enough to be classified as "Seal" and not as "Variety"?


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  • December 09, 2021 15:33
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December 09, 2021 15:33
Helv 
To begin with: is your item with vertical or horizontal lozenges?
Helv
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December 09, 2021 16:00
@Loriot I find it hard to tell, but I think it is this one

Would that be horizontal?
Is there any trick, other than rubbing it over silver, to make it better visible/easier to distinguish?
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  • December 09, 2021 16:46
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December 09, 2021 16:46
Helv
Your item has the following specification:
3.50 K Imperial Arms type Ruble denomination issued in 1919 by the Provisional Government of the Republic of Russia. The stamp is typographed on wove paper. No watermark.
Perforation 13½X13(¼) with horizontal lozenges of varnish on the surface.
Mi: 78 D y (issued in range of 1910-1919)
Y&T: 126a (issued in 1919)
Scott: 137b (issued from 1917)
I would be inclined to place your item under  Russia [1857-1917] (although issued in 1919 it belongs to the series beginning in 1917 according to Y&T and Scott).
I have no answer to your last question.

 
Helv
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December 09, 2021 16:54
Loriot thank you very much. I totally overlooked Y&T 126a. If there are no further objections or insights I will add it as a new item in Rusland [1857-1917].
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December 09, 2021 17:51
Helv you are too busy with your own catalog Zagorskii, let go of that, and follow the numbers of de Michel and or de yvert or gibbon or scott.
the catalog is largely according to de Michel and Yvert.
I'll come back to your questions later
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December 09, 2021 18:11
Helv
Question 1: Is this stamp equal to #1269269?
If yes (
aartinge):
a) Can the perforation be changed from 13 1/2 to K13 1/2 : 13 1/4? no keep the Michel
b) Should the year be adjusted to 1919? , no the stamp with vertical diamonds is from 15/18
by the way, the period 1919/23 is called russian sos federation (RSFSR)
c) Should the country be adapted to Russia [1918-1923]? LEAVE EVERYTHING AS IT IS.



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Helv
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December 09, 2021 19:27
aartinge Thank you for your information. The conclusion is that #1269269 is another seal. However, I could not see that from the Michel numbers as discussed in the other discussion.

With regard to Zagorsii, the NL collectors should therefore no longer use the NVPH ;-)

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December 09, 2021 20:44
Helv stamp #1269269 is the vertical diamond 127AX 1915
similar to your image above.
however your seal can also be the 127AY with horizontal diamond formation. 1919
by the way, perforation 13¼ is stated.
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December 09, 2021 21:11
aartinge 
It's impossible to have an effective conversation with you if you constantly mention no more existing Michel numbers 127 AX and 127 AY. 
And recognizing stamps is still no guess work.
 

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December 09, 2021 21:25
Did they already have new songs then?Loriot Look better, the songs 127AX and 127Ay are still in the catalog.
yes, then stop the conversation with you here
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December 09, 2021 21:35
aartinge

Be serious!
127AX and 127Ay  today:
Helv
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December 09, 2021 21:59
Loriot and aartinge for 127 I obtain the same result as Loriot....  

Helv
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December 09, 2021 22:03
@postmaster How do we solve this problem? This is a practical example of a Babelonic confusion of tongues to illustrate the more general topic in this forum about the Michel catalog and the change in numbering they ever made.

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December 09, 2021 22:36
Helv 1269269 and 5726497 are 127AX and 127AY
it appears that the search engine is not working properly then
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December 09, 2021 22:39
can someone check the stamp search engine. it concerns the top bar "Search the stamps" 127AX and 127AY is not found
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December 09, 2021 23:04
Helv you get the same result as Loriot , but you already have #1269269 open., see your question.
Question 1: Is this stamp equivalent to # 1269269?
then you also saw that this seal was 127AX.
 This is clearly a practical example of a Babylonian confusion of tongues
I did see it, but not anymore 

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December 09, 2021 23:57
aartinge
Don't be stubborn!
Changing the NOW existing Michel number 78 A x by the OLD number for the item  #1269269 is not helping anybody.
I haven't that old catalogue you have, so I can't verify if the old number is correct. 
I suggest you place the old number in the field "Details" and I'll place the new number in the field "Michel number".  
Helv
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December 10, 2021 00:24
aartinge obviously I was not looking for these stamps in LD, because by know I am fully aware that the Michel numbers are highly ambiguous (either old, new or wrong).

On your request I stopped changing numbers for now and am waiting for a resolution how to move forward. For which at this point in time I hope @postmaster can form an opinion.
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December 10, 2021 08:26
 can someone check the stamp search engine. it concerns the top bar "Search the stamps" 127AX and 127AY is not found 

If you search on 127 AX you will see the stamp, because the Michel number is entered there as 127 AX.
The same also applies to 127 AY.
This spelling for Michel numbers with a space between the numbers and letters is also prescribed in the Handbook. That's why you have to search that way too.

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December 10, 2021 09:03
  • You can NEVER assume that searching on a catalog number will yield the desired result. That depends on whether the number has been entered, is correct, or whether the seal is present in the catalog at all. In addition, the numbers are only indicated as an extra "service" for the users.
  • The above applies to all catalogues.
  • To determine whether two LD numbers concern the same stamp, you should always rely on the information that is included with the stamps, such as perforation, watermark, color, etc., which are assumed to be determined by the importer HIMSELF (including mandatory own scan) .

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